Re: [exim] Debian as a 'Special Case' for Exim

Marc Haber wrote:

> On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 02:19:18 +0800, Bill Hacker <wbh@???>
> wrote:
>
*SNIP*

>
> How would local processes (syslog rotation and automatic updating
> engines come to mind) send e-mail on a MTA-less system?
>

Why should they be allowed to do so on a laptop, personal PC, or other
device connected to a dialup or 'allocated portable' (ADSL, etc) IP?

Where, pray tell, do they send it?

To a box on the other side of the room?

All of the messages you mention will sit quite comfortably on the box
and are easily read if/as/when needed with 'less', 'tail', or 'grep' if
you are looking or something specific.

They don't actually have to be emailed anywhere. Ever.

Our servers do not even absolutely, postively have a need to do this -
even though they are in data centers in Hong Kong, Singapore, and Zurich
while our team members may be in 'none of the above' places on any given
day. We can ssh in and check.

All of the Debian users I know 'face to face' use Debian for R&D, coding
and similar development, and other personal productivity desktops or
laptops. Seldom is a shell any further away than an e-mail instance
would be.

I am sure Debian is also used for 'production' servers, but those should
have a 'proper' Exim installation - not some hack to keep script-kiddies
from having to RTFM.

>
>>But setting up full-house MTA's on IP's 'allocated portable' is not
>>generally in the best interest of the 'net.
>
>
> If you take the default for all questions the Debian exim4 packages
> ask on installation, you end up with an SMTP listener on 127.0.0.1,
> which is not doing harm to the 'net.
>

Or getting your prized logs mailed either....

>>The UNIX default install of Exim goes in right over top of that with
>>very minimal config changes required.
>
>
> The UNIX default install of Exim listens on all available interfaces,
> sends out messages with an envelope sender which is invalid in 99 % of
> all today's cases, and uses direct-to-MX delivery which is a bad idea
> for most of today's cases as well.
>

For the average laptop, certainly.

>
>>And - BTW - for a box that is NOT a remote, unattended server, there is
>>seldom a pressing need to send that mail somewhere off-box.
>
>
> Which is why the Debian exim4 packages default to "local delivery
> only, not on a network".
>

So why even install an MTA?

>
>>IF/AS/WHEN one needs to provide smtp as a more general service, to many
>>shell account users, for a corporate LAN / intra-net, or for virtual
>>hosting, then it is another matter entirely - but one should by then
>>also be into registered domains and fixed IP's.
>
>
> The Debian exim4 packages support most of today's setups which is
> significantly more than a stock install can do.
>
>
>>>ways of integrating debconf with exim's rather big, monolithic
>>>configuration have shown not to be practical.
>>
>>Compare it with the small modular courier-mta configuration.
>
>
> Courier is no way near to exim in flexibility.
>
>
>>>We don't expect our users to edit a multi-hundred line config file.
>>
>>To which a very, very few changes are needed...
>
>
> And a single change is enough to completely break the automated config
> file handling that is a big part of the things people like about
> Debian.
>
>
>>- Provide a menued 'sed inplace' or similar tool to set the domain.tld
>>and such other 'personalization' required - BUT STILL to a 'standard'
>>exim configure file format (optionally stripped of comments - or with
>>Debian comments *added*)
>
>
> This proposal prompts the question wheter you have actually ever
> looked at the Debian exim 4 package since this is the exact way we do
> it now.
>

I figured it was the best of the linuxes. Tried it. Still think it is
one of the best Linuxes.

IMNSHO, Linux is a 'probabalistic' OS. If enough package maintainers
actually agree to cooperate to the same specs on a given day, there is a
finite probability that you will have a working installation. Most of
the time. For a while. Maybe.

I prefer 'deterministic' OS'en.

Netcraft the uptime on conducive.net or conducive.org

>
>>Then - the 'expert level' - leave editing of a *full standard* Exim
>>configure to those who need and want the full power of it.
>
>
> This is supported by the Debian exim4 packages as well.
>

Then why all the strum und drang? Simply drop the abortion and leave
the standard.

> Greetings
> Marc
>

I wish you all the best with Deb & Ian, but the issue has to drop off my
personal OA-99 for now...

Bill