I've thought long and hard about typing and posting this, because I know
that some people will be upset when they read it - I have tried my
damnedest to remain objective and impersonal about this issue, so if
anyone finds any part of this objectionable please ensure that you read
the whole thing for the correct context. If you want to reply, make a
choice as to whether your reply is relevant for a list posting or not;
personal replies will be replied to as necessary!
On Thu, 2008-01-24 at 19:18 -0800, Marc Perkel wrote: > What is and isn't document depends on the viewpoint of the reader. If
> you are intimately familiar with the internals of Exim then perhaps
> everything is answered. But even if you are a seasoned user like I am,
> or if you are a newbie, then what is documented from the perspective ofe
> the reader is far less that what the programmers here think are covered.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again - I'm not a programmer
(although I can program, to a certain degree). I'm not one of the
development team. I am one of the list moderators, for those who don't
know, but that's not a massively onerous task. This post is me not
wearing my moderating hat - I make it clear when I'm doing that.
I'm not hugely familiar with the "internals of Exim" (although I've used
it for years, others still demonstrate that they know far more than me),
and the reason I didn't answer your original question was that the
answer wasn't something that came to mind immediately. Generally I don't
have the time to spend searching the docs for answers to questions, so I
answer the ones I can and let others answer the ones they can.
I will, however, take issue in public with the "depends on the viewpoint
of the reader". There are two issues here:
1. What's documented is documented, there is no "point of view". Items
are either documented, or they're not - and Exim's documentation is
extremely comprehensive. It starts with a very high-level view and
becomes more detailed the further you go into it.
2. You have to actually read the docs to have a point of view in the
first place.
I'm not passing judgement in either of those statements but I am making
a point - in pretty much any widely-used F/OSS project with a thriving
mailing list, the most frequent questions are answered in the manner of
my initial response: "here's the brief answer, and here's where you'll
find it in the docs; go read, try, debug, and come back if it doesn't
work for you". For the occasional poster, that answer usually sends them
down the right road and they come back with a "thanks!".
However, in some cases, certain posters repeatedly ignore advice and
demonstrate a complete lack of regard for the people who are trying to
help them. That happens here, too - and I have been guilty of it
elsewhere in the past, and have been guided with a friendly hand in some
cases, or bitch-slapped in others.
> I have to agree that when the programmers here call users ignorant,
> arrogant, stupid and lazy it just drives people off and causes people to
> not want to be a member of the Exim community. The programmers know code
> but they don't know people and understand that most end users haven't
> dedicated their lives to the internals of Exim.
It is rare that someone resorts to personal comments; when they do, and
the moderators find that to be inappropriate, "quiet words" can be had.
However, I personally find your comments about two things: your
assumption that everyone posting answers here is a programmer, and that
those who post frequently "don't know people" extremely insulting, Marc.
It shows a lack of understanding of the community which I find quite
surprising, given your commitment to that community and the software it
supports. I've spent the last ten years managing, mentoring and coaching
people in technical roles with some success (to a large degree,
although with some notable failures). I post here because of the way
F/OSS projects work:
1. You're a newbie.
2. You ask dumb questions.
3. A seasoned user offers guidance, points out useful bits of the docs,
asks you to read them.
4. You read them. Hell, you buy the book. You might attend a training
course.
5. Time passes, friend. You make the same mistakes a few times, and
people respond in various ways. You develop a thick skin.
6. You start asking smarter questions.
7. You start _answering_ questions.
8. You start guiding newbies to the docs. Those newbies move on to steps
4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 (ooh, a circular list!). You stop being a newbie and
start being regarded as a seasoned user.
That feels quite nice, as I'm sure several of the other "seasoned user"
types around here will testify. Most of us continue to do it because we
were helped in kind by others very early on in our usage of this, or
other, software.
However, there's a down side to being helpful, however you do it:
9. Eventually, someone finds your guidance offensive.
10. You end up having this discussion, repeatedly, with a tiny fraction
of the people using the software you've come to know quite a lot about.
> I'm fairly tough and
> committed to Exim but when they insult other users they are gone. I also
> participate here far less than I would otherwise because of this kind of
> thing. It's not the first time this has happened and it's not just with me.
Now I am addressing Marc directly: do you ever, for a moment, consider
that the reason people respond to you in the way they do (politely as I
did, or otherwise) is because although many subscribers have requested -
repeatedly, and with variant levels of politeness - that you help us to
help you, but you seem to resolutely refuse to do so? I recall one
poster quoting:
Give a man a fish, feed him for a day.
Teach a man to fish, feed him for life.
There is an extension to this which is never more true than right now:
Teach a man to fish, so that he may teach others.
> I would encourage the powers that be here refrain from insults and show
> respect for the questioner. Even if the person asking the question
> actually is ignorant, arrogant, stupid and lazy.
Few subscribers have ever directly called, or inferred, that about other
subscribers. This is still one of the politest lists I subscribe to, one
of the most useful lists, and certainly one of the most helpful. I
learned from my mistakes; I really want you to do the same. You already
know a huge amount about the way Exim works - it would be great if you
took the guidance given by me (and others) to heart, as you obviously
have a lot to offer. If you continue to take it in the way that you do,
nobody wins.
