Re: [Exim] Web based admin

Matthew Byng-Maddick:

> I've thought long and hard about this before, and every time I've come to
> the same conclusion.
>
> I'm only labelling people who think that having a simplified interface to
> try and let them administer a complex system they don't understand or want
> to understand.

Wrong. You're labelling people who think that administering complex systems
is best aided by complex tools.
>
> > >I hate to make this point, but mail is *extremely* technical. Getting
> > Mail is just another application. Exim is just another mail server. It
>
> The second sentence is correct ... The first is not. In my reasonably
> limited experience with UNIX, there is no such thing as "just another
> application". If that is really what you think, can I recommend MS
Exchange?

Why? Why would any idiot choose to use a broken tool, thus making it more
difficult, if not impossible, to administer correctly.

> Mail delivery is inherently extremely complex. All of the queueing,
spooling

Of course it is, but it STILL follows fairly simple and programmatically
explainable rules. It is, indeed, just another application. If too many
UNIX tools aren't "just applications", then there are too many programmers
out there who can't program. That's not a problem with Exim. There is
absolutely no reason why a good programmer couldn't create a good tool that
would prevent idiots from doing things incorrectly (face it - it doesn't
matter how hard you think mail administration should be, there will be
incompetents doing it), and help competent people do it more easily.

> and the SMTP in-step transaction are the way they are for a reason, if you
> don't even try to understand it, should you be a mail admin?

It's irrelevant - who pays mail admins what they're worth? So you're going
to end up with a lot of people being made mail admin whether they want it or
not and whether they are capable or not.

> think not. If you try to be a kind of "fair-weather" mailadmin, then you
are
> going to have problems when some of the obscure failure modes happen (and
> there are a few of these). Do you know about all of the different relay
> modes for a mailserver? Do you know how to configure them. Mark Baker has

This is not the issue. Bad mail admins will never know this - and no tool
or lack of it will change that. You and others of your ilk seem to believe
that if we can just make things difficult enough only smart people will use
exim (or whatever other application), but this is simply wrong. Instead,
without good tools bad admins will just use those applications in _worse_
ways.

> What happens when the webmin has let them set up an open relay and they
get

The same as when they configure by hand and open relay. Instead, the webmin
module should make it difficult to set up _unknowingly_.

> I'm getting at
> the whole concept of configuring a complex system (in this case mail) by
> clicking a few checkboxes. I remember seeing a screenshot for an early
> version of MacOS X, and seeing this dialog box with:
>
> Mail Server: ( ) On (O) Off

But that's simply bad programming on the part of the tool builder. I have
the same problem with knetfilter on Linux - the entire help consists of a
bunch of inadequate tool tips. That's NOT a gui tool, it's a gui liability.

> I had the same argument that I'm having with you now with an avid Mac fan
> on why this was bad, maybe you don't see it or understand it, in which
> case, I'm unlikely to educate you.

Of course we see it. You seem to be saying that "some gui tools are bad
means all gui tools are bad". If you can't see the logical flaw there, I'm
unlikely to educate you.
>
> No doubt webmin also has a plugin module for configuring DNS, actually,
> don't tell me, I'll just get depressed, because after all, DNS is "just
> another application".

Too true. And if webmin has such a module, the only question of value is
"is it a GOOD module"?
--
derek